00:01.52
Robert Karel
There's a difference between managing a repeatable launch process and a startup launching its product for the first time. I'm a huge fan of launch tiering calculators mapped to activities needed to support different types of B2B launches, but those are built for companies that are already in the market with at least a few customers to learn from.
00:19.45
Robert Karel
First launches are different. In B2B you're hunting for your first few production customers that will hopefully build momentum. In B2C you're likely looking for hundreds of users before you know if you're on the right track.
00:31.00
Robert Karel
Today, I'm sitting down with Shannon Kearns, an experienced product marketing and go-to-market strategy consultant who's helped launch products for both B2B and B2C businesses. We're going to discuss the foundational work required no matter what you're launching, as well as the similarities and differences across B2B and B2C.
00:48.49
Robert Karel
Shannon, welcome.
00:50.37
Shannon Kearns
thanks rob I'm excited to be here.
00:53.46
Robert Karel
Well, let's get started by just a little bit of background about yourself. We want to kind of share a bit about your career journey. and What type of consulting you're supporting today?
01:03.78
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, absolutely. So my biggest pet peeve is like when people go on and on about their accolades for like 10 minutes, like we're here to get into the meat of it. So I'm gonna keep this.
01:13.39
Robert Karel
So let's get nine and a half minutes max.
01:15.57
Shannon Kearns
Right, I love that. But I'll keep it short and sweet. I started my career about 13 years ago, more in the content marketing and demand generation space. quickly learned that I didn't love the execution side of demand gen advertising, social media, blah, blah, blah.
01:33.40
Shannon Kearns
And I was working under a brilliant VP of product who did a lot of product marketing. So I started learning product marketing from him. And then Eventually moved into specifically product marketing and left my demand generation roots behind.
01:50.59
Shannon Kearns
And that's really where I've stayed since. So I've been in product marketing more specifically about eight years. I've done enterprise B2B SaaS for my entire career, including my consulting clients.
02:04.25
Shannon Kearns
and about six years ago i moved into the business to consumer space as well specifically on direct to consumer mobile apps so when you and i get into be the b2c world it'll be direct to consumer mobile apps i still work in tech even for the consumer side And today the clients that I serve, it's twofold.
02:26.34
Shannon Kearns
I'm part product marketer where I do positioning and messaging for companies that have existing products that are struggling. I also do a lot of customer research analysis helping companies. understand how to better position products.
02:40.49
Shannon Kearns
On the other side, I do go to market strategy. for very small companies who are truly bringing their first product to market. so that's why i call myself pmm and go to market strategy because i really do both
02:55.18
Robert Karel
That's awesome. And I'm excited because i have most of my experience is in B2B, sometimes larger B2B. And I've launched new products for companies, but I've never launched a first product.
03:02.43
Shannon Kearns
yeah
03:07.63
Robert Karel
Right. So from stealth to launch, for example.
03:10.80
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
03:11.22
Robert Karel
and I've had very little B2C experience. I'm really excited to kind of... compare notes and talk about just Launch management processes and what are the... assumptions that i make around this is how you do a launch no matter what and i think you're going to help challenge what different and unique about that first launch.
03:30.49
Robert Karel
So...
03:30.59
Shannon Kearns
yeah love it
03:32.03
Robert Karel
And let's kind of start there. So what does a first...launch. look like? Why is it different from any other launch process.
03:44.50
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, first launches are really scary because you have no data. You have no information. If you're a company that's been out for a bit and has already launched a product or five, whatever, you've got an understanding of who.
04:00.60
Shannon Kearns
your customer is you know that you've got some sort of value to deliver to them you know a lot about the buying journey that they take and their preferences and so forth So it makes it a lot easier to launch a second and third product and you've already got customers. So you have a way.
04:17.49
Shannon Kearns
to actually connect with those people. you don't have any of that when you're launching your first product so really when we're thinking about true zero to one launch bringing something new to a market where we're a new player.
04:32.02
Shannon Kearns
It's all about making assumptions and testing and validating those assumptions in the market. It's a ton of learning. It's a ton of methodical learning.
04:44.09
Shannon Kearns
And it's also about building that customer base from the ground up and making those connections. so Those are the biggest differences, like you're going in and you're testing a bunch of assumptions that you have no data on or very little data on yet.
05:05.51
Robert Karel
Which makes sense. And that's why I love the title we came up... with for our episode is that our first launch isn't a process it's a hypothesis because
05:15.15
Shannon Kearns
Yes.
05:15.89
Robert Karel
You literally don't know if you...
05:17.49
Shannon Kearns
You don't know.
05:18.15
Robert Karel
If you've hit product market fit, you've had the investor conversations, you've had maybe one-on-one direct, but. You're not just launching a product, you're launching. your brand for the first time, probably.
05:28.68
Shannon Kearns
Exactly. Yes.
05:29.29
Robert Karel
You're launching your leadership for the first time into the market.
05:31.59
Shannon Kearns
Yes.
05:32.71
Robert Karel
so
05:33.57
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
05:33.56
Robert Karel
So it's really interesting.
05:34.89
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, absolutely. All of those things as well are really important.
05:38.87
Robert Karel
So, and another thing, is just especially for... early stage founders like this we talked about go-to-market strategy being part of your consulting practice and This podcast is a go-to-market perspective, but...
05:51.85
Robert Karel
go to market means different things to different people and especially for founders so When you're helping a go-to-market strategy to support a first launch.
06:04.16
Robert Karel
What does the founder usually mean when they're asking for that help? What does it usually include in their scope?
06:10.17
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, I love this question. And I like I love the founders that reach out to me on LinkedIn asking for help. It's always such a different conversation of what they're looking for. It is usually there's a misconception about what go to market strategy is, especially for early stage companies.
06:31.35
Shannon Kearns
the majority of the time what i am getting from founders is they're looking for someone to run their sales process or build out their advertising process.
06:41.64
Shannon Kearns
It's very much more about go to market execution versus go to market strategy. And so there's just a misunderstanding in the market here that. go-to-market strategy is executing on your go to market motion, whatever that motion is.
06:56.90
Shannon Kearns
And that's usually where I have to step back with founders and I have to say, okay, hang on. do we actually have the strategy in place? And have we validated the strategy? Because if we haven't done that.
07:09.41
Shannon Kearns
then you probably shouldn't go trying to execute a go-to-market motion if you don't have the strategy in place. And so when I talk about strategy, I really mean.
07:20.44
Shannon Kearns
do we have strong evidence that we're getting in front of the right audience with the right message Do we have strong evidence that we are going after that audience at a channel that we can realistically scale?
07:32.79
Shannon Kearns
It's not five friends that. I have who are using my mobile app. It's that I've actually entered communities and been able to get people to successfully. use my mobile app, use it repeatedly.
07:46.21
Shannon Kearns
pay a certain amount. That's a big one. And I'm able to measure that and so forth. like That is really what the foundation of a strategy is.
07:57.04
Shannon Kearns
And so I try and help. founders understand. the difference and understand that it's not the same thing as execution and if you try executing before you've got strategy.
08:10.40
Shannon Kearns
You're 100%. going to fail you will or you'll burn a ton of money and piss off your investors
08:14.17
Robert Karel
if
08:18.78
Robert Karel
Right. It's the proverbial. Fire ready aim.
08:22.73
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. Yes! Yes, that's a good one. i should have thought of that.
08:28.22
Robert Karel
But it's because you're talking about. knowing who your audience is, finding the right communities, figuring out who are you even selling to? And then I love you brought up. pricing and packaging.
08:39.56
Shannon Kearns
yeah
08:39.96
Robert Karel
What are you even going to charge for this? you charge a steep premium, you're going to cut off a whole bunch of other folks. You charge but too little, you're going to leave money on the table. And how do you know where to start?
08:48.87
Shannon Kearns
so important
08:49.89
Robert Karel
so And obviously. positioning As we talked about being the other half of both of our consultancies is simply. foundational if you don't know your value.
09:02.81
Robert Karel
prop and your audience then What are you activating? What are you executing on?
09:07.89
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, absolutely and I think it's okay to still have some it's Of course, it's perfectly fine to still have some. questions around who your customer profile is and i really i always push for an early customer profile and going in and starting there and validating that and then thinking about what your ideal customer might be is it the same or not
09:32.28
Shannon Kearns
So, it's but there is a certain point where you have to have a certain level of. insight and data. about. that you're getting in front of the right person with the right message before you really start scaling. It's never going to be a hundred percent. You're still going to have questions, but I see people moving into it way too soon for sure.
09:54.24
Robert Karel
Yeah. And so what are some of the ingredients in that zero to one launch recipe?, so what are some of the... mvp minimum viable product of what you need to do In order to have that first launch, which.
10:11.49
Robert Karel
as you know, as companies scale and you have bigger and existing customers, there's a lot more things you could add to that recipe. But that zero to one has got to be pretty focused.
10:19.82
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
10:21.62
Robert Karel
So what are those? activities, that foundational work.
10:25.60
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
10:26.84
Robert Karel
that you recommend for that zero to one launch.
10:29.22
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. So again, I think it needs to start with what assumptions you're making about your different pillars primarily what assumptions you're making about the audience that you want to serve.
10:44.60
Shannon Kearns
Who that audience is or audiences at that point, you've got a couple of ideas of different audiences. So. write those down, also understand where those people are hanging out.
10:58.50
Shannon Kearns
and how you're going to get in front of those people. and figure out, what is the fastest way that you can get in front of those people? who in your list of ideas early audience buckets that you have.
11:14.23
Shannon Kearns
could you get in front of? the absolute fastest. and get conversations with and feedback on. the fastest. And this really goes for B2B or B2C. It doesn't matter. you where I see people going wrong is they try and go for the huge enterprise.
11:33.77
Shannon Kearns
client that And it just ends up taking like. months and months for them to get in and actually have conversations with the buying committee and so forth.
11:45.79
Shannon Kearns
the beginning tactics. for zero to one is getting in front of people that you think have the problem and talking to them about that problem.
11:57.00
Shannon Kearns
and also eventually talking about the product. if you don't have an easy way to get in front of those people You shouldn't be going after those people initially. So I think that piece is really important. Write down the assumptions that you're making across your different audiences.
12:14.79
Shannon Kearns
and figure out the fastest way to kind of validate those assumptions around your audience. The other piece is making sure that your product matches. who that audience is how that audience buys and how you're going to get in front of that audience because If you...
12:33.94
Shannon Kearns
For example, if you have a... Enterprise, B2B. platform that requires five integrations for people to get value. You probably shouldn't be trying to Pitch a free trial to the five people in your network that could potentially be end users of your product That's not the right.
12:58.28
Shannon Kearns
that product is not going to fit that strategic approach.
13:02.04
Robert Karel
Mhm.
13:02.47
Shannon Kearns
And so when you're looking at audiences and getting in front of audiences and having conversations. It's also about making sure that your product is actually able to service those audiences and deliver those audiences.
13:15.39
Shannon Kearns
value. so that's really where i would start as a founder is having those conversations
13:22.89
Robert Karel
Yeah, it makes sense. And obviously. determine depending on what your product is like your example of if your product requires a whole lot of setup and integrations and it's probably going to be a big it initiative or require some systems architecture don't go to the end users because they're not the ones that are going to make or break whether this is something that's going to be approved.
13:43.17
Robert Karel
and it also goes down to your launch. goals like Are you the type of business that's like. If you sign five customers this year, You're doing great. like the whale hunters versus Is it like a mid-market or departmental play where you actually need...
14:00.53
Robert Karel
hundreds of customers, and that also determines. Right.
14:04.60
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, exactly. And you the buying committee, to your point, was... with it t and mid market versus enterprise and whales versus not The buying committee is so important there. And you need to be able to understand the buying journey of these people that you're selling to. And within the buying journey of enterprise is a huge bulky buying committee.
14:30.52
Shannon Kearns
Some founders have the ability to go in and have those conversations because they have a huge network. That's awesome. Always start with your network, right?
14:37.79
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
14:38.04
Shannon Kearns
Other founders don't have that network. And so going enterprise is going to be really, really challenging because it's going to take them forever to get insights on that buying committee.
14:49.10
Shannon Kearns
which is directly related to the buyer journey. it's the same thing on the consumer side you're you want to learn about the buying journey of a consumer as well it's just a lot easier because it's one person versus like a whole buying committee that you have to.
15:05.43
Shannon Kearns
figure out and validate against.
15:08.71
Robert Karel
Yeah, and that kind of leads to my next question. because So obviously... the at the strategy level B2C and B2B are very similar. You got to understand who you're selling to, why they would care, and what their individual journeys are, whether it's a...
15:18.66
Shannon Kearns
yeah
15:23.79
Robert Karel
complex buying committee or it's Some guy that just needs his wife to say, sure, we can do that.
15:30.61
Shannon Kearns
pride
15:30.99
Robert Karel
right but what are some of the real distinctions between a B2B and a B2C? launch So there's obviously the similarities we kind of talked about.
15:43.50
Robert Karel
And what are some of the things that are really distinct that someone that's launching to a consumer base has to think differently than the... B2B or enterprise base.
15:53.42
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, it's like it's a great question. And I think I'll just caveat this by saying, again, I will speak to mobile apps.
16:04.21
Shannon Kearns
because that's the space that I've done the most B2C work in.
16:06.07
Robert Karel
sure
16:08.76
Shannon Kearns
I do some packaged goods, but that's like a whole nother beast with a retail arm.
16:12.56
Robert Karel
Yeah.
16:12.64
Shannon Kearns
and we won't
16:12.93
Robert Karel
We don't have to worry about selling one of your detergents. We're good.
16:15.15
Shannon Kearns
Yeah, we won't get into that.
16:16.06
Robert Karel
yeah
16:17.38
Shannon Kearns
If we're talking about mobile apps versus an enterprise B2B platform that has an enterprise B2B SaaS that has a whole buying committee. The one thing that I think is also.
16:28.93
Shannon Kearns
similar between those two that we didn't talk about. And I'll just flag that. is the community growing your community as a founder growing your name in the community of those sellers is really really important.
16:46.71
Shannon Kearns
in the B2B space and in the B2C space. So regardless, the founder needs to be growing their community because that builds trust and trust is everything these days with respect to brand.
17:00.31
Shannon Kearns
The biggest difference is going to be the time to insight. That you have with B2C versus B2B. how quickly you can iterate and learn on who is willing to pay what and what value they're getting.
17:17.58
Shannon Kearns
And then specifically for me to see how quickly you need to move into the retention play. So with B2B. My first year is focused on closing deals.
17:29.63
Shannon Kearns
and getting people signed and understanding where they're where they have value. A lot of that is focused on building. With. customers.
17:39.97
Shannon Kearns
So a lot of co-building with customers, building products that are uniquely suited for those enterprise customers. There's a big focus there. but I am focused on closing deals.
17:52.23
Shannon Kearns
and opening up my pipeline. and learning as much about the blockers from all from that whole buying committee. and probably addressing a lot of those on the product side.
18:03.97
Shannon Kearns
On the B2C side, I can very quickly move. Once I've broken into these communities and I've got my mobile app out there and I've got people using it, I can very quickly.
18:15.51
Shannon Kearns
move into using my product data. to inform Who seems to be a good fit for this product? but also more importantly, who is sticking around and continuing to use my product.
18:31.40
Shannon Kearns
and why. So on the B2C side, I'm actually switching quickly. to i want to talk to people who keep coming back to my app Because if I just focus up here on filling my pipeline, with on the B2B side, it's important to have a lot of conversations on B2B.
18:50.48
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
18:50.80
Shannon Kearns
If I fill my pipeline here on B2C, but I'm generating people. That. use my app once and never come back. I'm filling a leaky bucket.
19:02.79
Shannon Kearns
So very quickly and using the product analytics data.
19:02.80
Robert Karel
Right.
19:07.41
Shannon Kearns
you have to transition into understanding not who is my best customer. or who not who's going to download my app and use it once. Who's going to stick around?
19:18.15
Shannon Kearns
and why and those are the live conversations that founders who have b2c products should be having They should be talking. to those people who are using their product.
19:30.12
Shannon Kearns
and also the people who aren't coming back to use it. as well because that gives us good insight. So those are kind of the big differences that I see across the two.
19:41.35
Robert Karel
Yeah, no, it makes sense. And I think, logically just based on scale. most b2c apps are going to be a plg motion product ledge driven through whatever marketplaces or whatever app stores or whatever you can do but it's like a one-to-many marketing thing like a one-to-many mini
19:51.03
Shannon Kearns
right
19:59.29
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. it's much easier.
20:00.97
Robert Karel
Whereas on the enterprise side, you... Some enterprises do PLG as well, but then there's founder-led and sales-led and partner-led and there's so many different other ways to market.
20:12.71
Shannon Kearns
ahead
20:14.97
Robert Karel
And, so, let's get let's assume we've done the foundational stuff who your audience is the product market fit When you actually get to the execution. How do you decide the right early execution channels for a B2B?
20:29.22
Shannon Kearns
Oh, yeah, this one is really challenging. And one of my pet peeves. with I was chatting with the this is chatting with the founder like several months ago and I was trying to figure out if it was a fit if I wanted to work with him and he was just he was hell-bent on his enterprise b2b that required integration into like i don't know how many different data systems within the customer
20:56.50
Shannon Kearns
He was so dead set on having this pilot program that let people try all the product 30 days for free And I was like, That's really awesome. That could be extremely appealing. Tell me about that. like. I like this angle of going product led and enterprise B2B, not enough companies explore it.
21:16.20
Shannon Kearns
And he was like, Oh, well, yeah, it's just we're going to help them get set up in the first 30 days and they get to use it for free for 30 days. And I was like, hang on. Do I still need to integrate all of those systems?
21:27.74
Robert Karel
Hmm.
21:27.79
Shannon Kearns
And he was like, yeah. And I was thinking, wait, so let's just assume, me as. a supply chain manager at a huge enterprise B2B. You think I have the permissions to connect?
21:41.47
Shannon Kearns
my 10 system, like my yeah ERP. my warehouse management system. Do you think I have the authority to connect these systems?
21:52.23
Shannon Kearns
No! So PLG, it's always great to explore and think about, but the product has to match. how the person that you're selling to will get the value.
22:05.56
Shannon Kearns
So if you want to sell them to supply chain managers, that's great.
22:06.63
Robert Karel
it
22:10.21
Shannon Kearns
But understand that. I will not be able to get any value. as soon as I enter the product because I've got to go talk to my IT team to integrate a million different things.
22:24.22
Robert Karel
Hmm.
22:24.65
Shannon Kearns
So it doesn't work. If you really want to do PLG, you need to make sure. that someone is able to come in. And within however amount of time. quickly see a little bit of value from the product. It doesn't have to be the full value.
22:42.19
Shannon Kearns
but a little bit of value. And they really need to be able to do that without necessarily engaging. my chief information officer with your, chief information officer and having an IT t conversation.
22:57.50
Shannon Kearns
So the biggest mistake I see there is people not taking into consideration. an end user. and what it means to get them value with your product.
23:09.02
Shannon Kearns
versus the full capabilities of your enterprise. B2B platform. I think it works really well. plg if you Don't expect people to integrate a bunch of systems.
23:22.67
Shannon Kearns
If there's a way for you to show some value without integrating systems.
23:22.77
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
23:27.32
Shannon Kearns
I also think it works well. if you're selling into like really small startups where Maybe me as like..., the chief marketing officer of Shannon's business or whatever.
23:42.16
Shannon Kearns
If I can connect my HubSpot without having to go talk to. a CIO person
23:49.95
Robert Karel
Mhm.
23:50.15
Shannon Kearns
cool that might actually work because we're a scrappy startup and we have fewer security
23:56.38
Robert Karel
right
23:56.71
Shannon Kearns
issues. So that's another angle as you could look at moving. way down market into places where maybe they're connecting one or two things.
24:08.21
Shannon Kearns
but it's basically one person that signs off.
24:12.88
Robert Karel
Yeah, that makes sense. That's why so many... Successful PLG motions for enterprise are starting at developers or starting with analysts or someone where it's like.
24:19.73
Shannon Kearns
Yep.
24:21.23
Robert Karel
It's serving their individual productivity. but not requiring this massive integration. And then... PLG is the entry foot in the door to then hopefully have them as influencers to go up market.
24:34.41
Robert Karel
and to then be able to maybe become get and become an enterprise standard.
24:34.47
Shannon Kearns
yes
24:38.26
Robert Karel
so to speak.
24:38.65
Shannon Kearns
Yes.
24:39.24
Robert Karel
so it's yeah i love the way you frame is like know your product and what the actual setup requirements are and the complexities of it. And PLG is also great for enterprise for upsell, cross-sell.
24:52.48
Robert Karel
Once you're installed and you've done the integrations, you can certainly use PLG emotions to encourage the existing users to want to take on new capabilities.
24:54.94
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
25:00.36
Robert Karel
But yeah, I love the way you framed with that. It's like. and no Know your product.
25:04.25
Shannon Kearns
you
25:04.78
Robert Karel
first and foremost, and Don't assume that it's going to be so easy for a large enterprise to just. play with something.
25:13.17
Shannon Kearns
yeah and you bring up a good point about moving leveraging plg to sell up market as well which i think is the strategy that a lot of b2b companies want Amen. you also have to be able to support that. So another important thing is if you're getting people in through plg you're getting the developers or the supply chain manager there i'm just because i do a lot of work in supply chain so that's where my head is
25:41.83
Robert Karel
Yeah.
25:42.09
Shannon Kearns
Like, it's great if you get that person in, but then you have to have. really good product analytics. that can show you if and when this person using your product might actually be ready for like an upsell into a higher tier. And then you have to have a sales team that knows to reach out to that person and that sales person can engage.
26:04.51
Shannon Kearns
in the bigger conversation bringing the supply chain managers boss and etc into these conversations so
26:09.53
Robert Karel
mm-hmm
26:12.73
Shannon Kearns
You also have to really be set up with your product analytics and your sales team. to move a person who came in on a product laden as a user you want to move that person you want to move that person into a sales cycle that's helping you bring
26:28.59
Robert Karel
And.
26:29.18
Shannon Kearns
more people into the organization. into your product, right? So that's another thing that people miss and It's lost revenue opportunity if you don't do it right.
26:40.68
Robert Karel
Right. And it's so it's going back to go-to-market strategy. Is this a land and expand motion? Like, is there a foot in the door, small start? that gets you in there, which then gives you some opportunities to do account-based marketing or to do some other PLG motions to upsell like we just talked about.
26:57.90
Robert Karel
So let's go, but it goes back to the.
26:58.38
Shannon Kearns
yeah yeah
27:01.54
Robert Karel
Hypothesis driven launch. where the founders of this brand new thing, that brand new company. They don't have the data to your point. And they have to, they obviously had a lot of.
27:16.67
Robert Karel
conversations with their network with their investors with other folks in their network But in the end, They have to launch on gut more so than data. the subsequent launches, they'll have more data. so What's your general impression of just the founders you've worked with?
27:33.96
Robert Karel
how comfortable are they in doing that and how many kind of fall into the analysis paralysis where they are afraid to do launch versus those that are just confident that We're ready to test this hypothesis. Let's go.
27:47.74
Shannon Kearns
oh I like this so much. Actually. i ra i don't think I've met a single founder that falls into an analysis paralysis. I think they are all just like Yes. I know that this is the customer that we will go after. And this is how we're different. And we've got this really amazing product.
28:11.97
Shannon Kearns
And I've had 10 people tell me that they would pay. $5,000 for a year subscription and dah, dah, dah. And like, we are ready. And...
28:22.70
Shannon Kearns
I wish some of them were a little bit more hesitant. and thought a little bit more about, how the assumptions that they're making. could actually be validated a little bit better before they start.
28:37.78
Shannon Kearns
lighting a fire under anything and by that I just mean putting money behind and trying to scale So the founders that I talked to, They think they know.
28:49.57
Shannon Kearns
what is best. way more than reality.
28:54.68
Robert Karel
They don't have the data to back it up. but again, I guess. To be fair to them. They shouldn't be founders if they don't have that confidence. And that risk.
29:02.29
Shannon Kearns
True. except So true.
29:04.61
Robert Karel
taking ability so, No successful founder.
29:06.37
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
29:08.85
Robert Karel
had all the information before they launched. So I do love the fact that. The confidence. And., in some cases, Ego, healthy ego is there.
29:19.00
Shannon Kearns
yeah Yeah. And those are some of the best people to work with. and that's why it's really important to have like. a partner so like a you or me next to the founder to pick out what's in their brain and really understand again i mentioned earlier about mapping out assumptions really understand where are we making assumptions.
29:42.87
Shannon Kearns
across how we want to bring this. product to market. So the go to market motion. the buying journey. who the actual customer who that early audience profile is How are we actually measuring success so forth like actually mapping these things out.
30:01.56
Shannon Kearns
And writing them down, we assume X, Y, and Z about the audience. Here are the three assumptions that we're making. We assume this, and this about. potentially being a blocker in the buying journey.
30:14.24
Shannon Kearns
And then what is the fastest way that we can go and validate these small pieces? And I don't mean validate them all at once.
30:22.85
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
30:23.06
Shannon Kearns
I mean, strategically, we are going to go into Enterprise. customers where i have x connections and i am going to focus on selling into these so that I can validate the assumptions that I am making about the buying committee. and ensure that my product is actually able to overcome some of these objections.
30:47.36
Robert Karel
you
30:47.57
Shannon Kearns
that I think I'm probably gonna have. It doesn't mean that I'm going and pitching. mid-market and spinning up a PLG. and da da da all at the same time. because there's there you have to somewhat focus
31:04.03
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
31:04.10
Shannon Kearns
in order to chip away at those assumptions that you're making. and turn them into somewhat more validated hypotheses. And so that's really where like.
31:16.52
Shannon Kearns
You want to focus, try and focus as a founder and write down what assumptions you are actually making. And where can you... test those assumptions. relatively quickly and how can you test those. We will not ever be able to test every assumption before we launch a product.
31:36.73
Shannon Kearns
But a lot of times I find people doing it way too soon. and just burning a lot of effort when it's like man, we could have actually just like. validated these three assumptions in like a two-month period and we would be in a totally different position than we are today.
31:56.87
Robert Karel
Right
31:56.96
Shannon Kearns
So that's what I wish I saw a little bit more. And that's why I think it's great. To have a go-to-market strategist work alongside a founder Because their ego.
32:08.48
Shannon Kearns
and their drive and their belief in their product is the absolute best thing ever We don't ever want to bring like. bring them down to earth too much but like We got to bring him down to earth a little bit.
32:20.40
Robert Karel
Right. We don't want them to suffocate. let's get that back into the oxygen layer of Earth.
32:24.81
Shannon Kearns
yeah
32:25.43
Robert Karel
but so this But this is a great next segue because... They're super confident in their hypothesis. They're ready to go. And then I've seen two extremes. I'm curious if you're. so suddenly you start getting market data back objections from people you're talking to where you're winning and where you're losing And so suddenly you're getting actual feedback.
32:49.35
Robert Karel
You're actually getting data. that you can now react to. I've seen the founders that are like, That data is not right. And I'm going to stick to my guns a little longer because I still believe my hypothesis is correct. We just haven't found the right people yet.
33:05.47
Robert Karel
Versus... We're going to shift strategy every five seconds. Every new piece of feedback is a new strategy, right?
33:11.19
Shannon Kearns
that yeah
33:12.24
Robert Karel
So I've literally seen both and They're both painful to witness. And then obviously the advice is like, what's the... just enough feedback to know it's time to pivot.
33:25.17
Shannon Kearns
yeah Yeah. totally exactly what I've seen. Two extremes. where like, oh, I heard this from a customer yesterday, so I need to build this into the product and's and we're going to have it in two weeks.
33:38.41
Shannon Kearns
Great. I love that enthusiasm. If you have unlimited development. capacity go for it. But. i think it really and this is a hard one it's hard to give just like a general piece of advice here.
33:56.14
Shannon Kearns
The way I like to think about this is what is the signal and what's the strength of the signal.. I'll just take it back to willingness to pay, for example.
34:10.86
Shannon Kearns
If I heard from 10 people again that they would pay $30. for this instead of $10. that's a good signal for me to listen to and consider maybe increasing my price a little bit I like that as a signal. But then I need to go and I need to strengthen.
34:35.22
Shannon Kearns
strengthen that signal by actually getting data for it and not fully commit to increasing my price make sure it's something I can roll back So I'm taking.
34:49.41
Shannon Kearns
I'm taking a signal from what the market is telling me and i'm doing a little test. But actually, I would argue with myself there that someone saying that they would pay X dollars for X dollars more.
35:03.99
Shannon Kearns
That's a really low quality signal.
35:06.78
Robert Karel
Mhm.
35:07.21
Shannon Kearns
That's basically just like. It almost means nothing. But if I've got... again. 10 15 20 people telling me that Hey, that might be something that I go test.
35:20.84
Shannon Kearns
but I'm testing it. I'm not changing my entire strategy because that's a low quality signal. now if i run a test and the data shows me that people will actually pay more Great. That's a really strong signal.
35:35.17
Shannon Kearns
Let's move that forward. and pursue that. So I really think that it has to do with the strength of the signal. And unfortunately what people tell you.
35:46.97
Shannon Kearns
is not a very strong signal. in comparison to what people actually do. And that is the biggest differentiation.
35:57.76
Shannon Kearns
between What I should act on versus what I shouldn't and what I should just kind of keep an ear out for to see if I hear this so many times.
36:07.45
Robert Karel
Thanks.
36:10.00
Shannon Kearns
that maybe it's now a stronger signal. That's how I like to advise founders. and it's a hard spot to be in because sometimes you don't know and you do want to move on signals that are a little bit lower. quality.
36:27.69
Robert Karel
Yeah, no, absolutely. And there's the signal like the pricing is just a great example of There's enough signal and there's enough feedback that says maybe you should do a pricing study.
36:41.94
Robert Karel
And you should actually. follow some best practices. Don't just use your gut based on. even 10 or 15.
36:48.93
Shannon Kearns
Love that, yeah.
36:50.17
Robert Karel
right it's like it tells you to focus on it doesn't tell you to do it
36:54.25
Shannon Kearns
Yes. yes and so if i were b to c I would actually probably just do a trial in the app because you can get quick data that way.
37:03.60
Robert Karel
good
37:03.98
Shannon Kearns
if your beat is If you're a B2B enterprise, Yeah, don't just go randomly changing your pricing.
37:09.44
Robert Karel
That could really destroy your brand and future prospects forever.
37:10.16
Shannon Kearns
that's Great. Yeah.
37:13.60
Robert Karel
Yeah.
37:13.67
Shannon Kearns
like do an actual like find a way to do lightweight pricing. I think that's such a great. And that's another thing to think about Is it enterprise B2B or is it B2C? how easy is it for me to test assumptions? Probably a lot easier over here on the Butte. be the seaside.
37:31.71
Robert Karel
Yeah, no you... Because it's lower stakes per customer, you get to have more fun experimenting.
37:38.23
Shannon Kearns
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah.
37:42.62
Robert Karel
yeah So, Going back to, I don't want this to feel like we're just slamming founders. i'm I haven't done that. It's a hard job. It takes a lot of courage to do it.
37:54.05
Shannon Kearns
oh yeah I love that.
37:54.66
Robert Karel
But...
37:55.54
Shannon Kearns
founder
37:55.71
Robert Karel
we all we you do see a lot of mistakes. as A lot of startups fail because of certain... repeated patterns. and then There's the... question of Product market fit.
38:08.81
Robert Karel
And basically, very often founders who maybe get those first few customers through their network and the friends and family sales, and they feel that.
38:20.49
Robert Karel
Because they were successful selling to that in-network. set of contacts that they have clear product market fit that will allow them to scale to the massive growth rates their investors are expecting.
38:34.99
Robert Karel
So have you seen that occurring where it's
38:35.00
Shannon Kearns
wow
38:40.23
Robert Karel
Have you really tested it on someone that doesn't know who you are?, when your brand is unknown, are you still finding that product market fit and that ability to sell?
38:44.02
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
38:50.61
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. Yeah, I see people i do see that mistake. happen. happening a lot where your early customer profile is not necessarily going to be the ideal customer profile that you end up having one year later.
39:07.67
Shannon Kearns
Again, the early customers are that network. And that's the whole point. It's like go into your network and put your product in front of people. and build go into the community and again in front of that those communities and talk to people That's your early customer profile.
39:27.28
Shannon Kearns
when I think about product market fit and really what an ideal customer profile is all about repeatable demand and you're not pushing something you're not pushing hard for someone to use something and someone to purchase something there's like a repeatable demand that is showing up in the market. that this particular segment is clearly seeing value in what you deliver.
39:57.07
Shannon Kearns
And you're seeing that over and over again. just kind of more organically and repeatedly
40:02.61
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
40:03.100
Shannon Kearns
So, it's great to have an early customer profile. And a lot of times we will use that. to get more clear on who that ideal customer really is.
40:16.02
Shannon Kearns
But we can't start talking about really an ideal customer. until we have validated that this customer. gets the value of our product.
40:27.23
Shannon Kearns
We can get in front of them. And it's re there's repeatable demand for this. And that takes a while. In B2C, it goes a lot faster.
40:37.61
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
40:37.88
Shannon Kearns
because i can run ads for cheap and i've got product data and da da da And B2B. it takes a lot longer but Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's, it is hard to sort of help founders understand that.
40:52.96
Shannon Kearns
listen i know you've got a great signal from your existing network and you know so many people and you've been able to get into these big enterprises and that's awesome But let's go sell to some enterprises that you didn't have an in. with the VP of supply chain.
41:11.51
Shannon Kearns
That's really what's going to matter because.
41:13.77
Robert Karel
yeah
41:14.78
Shannon Kearns
you're not going to have an in at all of these companies. And that's really the true test. if this is your ideal customer.
41:25.37
Robert Karel
Let's shift the conversation a little bit to AI. so The good news is AI absolutely. can help accelerate a whole lot of processes and research and there's a lot of stuff AI can help with.
41:41.17
Robert Karel
I think there's certainly been., instances where founders are maybe. Just replacing any hands-on market research and conversations with just AI research, which I think we...
41:52.40
Shannon Kearns
Oh my gosh, yes.
41:53.78
Robert Karel
I think we know is probably a risk. and we won't even go into the hallucinations and all that that's Very topical, but everyone's managing it. Everyone's talking about it. Everyone's at least acknowledging that that's a reality now. So let's focus more on the positive of AI.
42:12.14
Robert Karel
Where actually do you see AI as a helpful accelerator for... preparing for that zero to one launch? Where do you see some opportunities to leverage AI to kind of get some of these answers that we've been talking about? through our conversation about those gaps in insight and knowledge, where is AI valuable in your mind?
42:33.14
Shannon Kearns
yeah I'm just writing this down because so that I don't forget it... So I think AI is. First of all, I love AI for web scraping I, with all of my clients, I use Cloud code plugin with Appify and Appify goes and scrapes an insane amount of whether it's YouTube comments whether it's review sites, whether it's Reddit threads.
43:00.21
Shannon Kearns
like it is so good at getting interesting insights about your potential audience in community forums. and hearing exactly how people are talking about the product was, excuse me about the problem. what other products they're considering, et cetera. It's also great at understanding competitors.
43:22.38
Shannon Kearns
and understanding where competitors are playing, what they're what is the competitor's go-to-market strategy, what's their what is the messaging that they're using, and so forth. So.
43:33.62
Shannon Kearns
volume of market insights. It's really good at that. And then synthesizing that into some themes. I also think it is exceptional.
43:44.44
Shannon Kearns
at brainstorming and being a thought partner. Again, when we're going back to this assumptions that founders are making and I really hope that. people if you're a founder and listening to this i hope you're writing your assumptions down It's AI is really good at being a thought partner about picking holes in what assumptions you're making and thinking about things that maybe you didn't think about. and being a strategic thought partner like that.
44:10.64
Shannon Kearns
i think especially picking holes and assumptions you're making it's good at that And then the third piece I love, love AI for. is helping build.
44:22.06
Shannon Kearns
your personal brand in communities. AI is great at finding topical conversations in Discord channels.
44:32.87
Shannon Kearns
Across LinkedIn it can scrape that it can bring to your attention What people are talking about it can show you their profile It can give you,
44:44.45
Shannon Kearns
its own comments i don't use ai for my own commenting but It is so good at helping you get. in front of the right people in these communities.
44:55.73
Shannon Kearns
and making your time really efficient in these communities with respect to building your brand so that you're focused on building the relationships and having the conversations. not on finding where you're supposed to be and finding the best place for you to be engaging.
45:08.74
Robert Karel
Yeah.
45:12.94
Shannon Kearns
so those are like the three areas that i think ai is just exceptional for zero to one
45:21.37
Robert Karel
That's great. and i and It goes back to the founder. Confidence. If you ask AI... prove that my assumptions are right, it's going to prove your assumptions are right.
45:34.23
Shannon Kearns
oh yeah
45:34.87
Robert Karel
But... If you ask AI... prove that my assumptions are wrong. you're suddenly going to get some really interesting feedback that will either You can. disregard because AIs.
45:48.89
Robert Karel
You don't want to agree, but there's going to be things that are likely going to come up in terms of your brainstorming partner idea. that are going to be like okay i hadn't thought of that i should spend more time on x so it's Most people are using AI to just validate their thinking as opposed to challenge their thinking.
46:04.65
Shannon Kearns
Yes.
46:05.50
Robert Karel
So to your point. If you... prompt AI to challenge you, it will challenge You just need to know what to ask.
46:11.49
Shannon Kearns
yeah
46:13.88
Shannon Kearns
that's such a great point you need to know what to ask and you need to also know what good looks like too. So like, don't go using AI for positioning and messaging like oh my god I mean unless you've done it before and you can tell if it's good or if it's bad
46:29.57
Robert Karel
right
46:34.35
Robert Karel
Right. it's like But it's great at summarizing your competitors' positioning and messaging.
46:38.32
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
46:38.59
Robert Karel
So you could at least say, what are they saying? Not what you should say.
46:43.09
Shannon Kearns
yeah and it's good at getting us some assumptions about your audience I think to your earlier point about There's no replacement for conversations with customers. Sometimes people try and do shortcuts and they're like, oh, I scraped all these forums. I know exactly who my customer is and what they're struggling with and dah, dah, dah.
47:02.63
Shannon Kearns
But it's like. The thing that AI still misses. you can scrape as many forums as you want, but the thing that AI misses that is no replacement for customer conversations.
47:13.47
Shannon Kearns
is the actual thinking that happens inside a buyer's brain. whenever they are going through their buyer journey. That. me writing on a forum about my experience.
47:26.62
Shannon Kearns
isn't me right then and there thinking about something or feeling emotional or whatever. Like it's just no. It's no replacement for customer conversations and trying to really get into your customers.
47:41.44
Shannon Kearns
heads at different points. of the journey and how they experience the problem and so forth because A lot of times what people write is doesn't really match. how they were thinking or how they were feeling at that.
47:55.03
Shannon Kearns
exact time when they first experienced the product or first looked for the product
48:00.57
Robert Karel
yeah Use AI's productivity to open up more time to have human conversations with your customers and prospects.
48:05.25
Shannon Kearns
yes Please, please have more conversations. Do not not have conversations.
48:11.70
Robert Karel
So as we wrap, the last question I'm going to ask is more about going back to, what's that? Zero to one, I'm launching my new product. From a go-to-market operations standpoint, what is the actual roles that I should have in place within my organization?
48:27.32
Robert Karel
at the minimum viable set of skills or team members and it could be agencies it could be consultants it doesn't have to be full-time whatever but What are those?
48:40.19
Robert Karel
end-to-end go-to-market support teams. You're going to have your product people. You've got your founder doing sales. but What does the sales org need to look like if it exists yet? What does the marketing skills need to be if they exist yet?
48:52.24
Robert Karel
So what are your thoughts there?
48:52.54
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. So on the B2C side, it's a little bit more straightforward. and actually so again i do think every founder needs to have someone who's helping with go-to-market strategy And I don't think it's the product person.
49:09.18
Shannon Kearns
On the B2C side, sometimes it's a good idea to have an agency that can help run your ads and you better have someone who understands your product analytics. and can set up really strong product analytics. That's actually usually the founder at early B2C. The founder is the product person.
49:26.82
Shannon Kearns
So I think having someone who can help you run ads is great. But actually, if you've got like a strong strategy, a strong marketing strategist, AI can do a lot.
49:38.34
Shannon Kearns
on the, if you're just going to trials and tests and Apple with. apple store ads actually ai can do a ton of that and you can build your own agents and work with the strategist to help figure out what you're going to test.
49:54.47
Shannon Kearns
it's really important to know what you're going to test and what you're trying to validate. versus just going out and copying what every competitor has done. So. but on the b2c side like find someone who can actually help you test messages in the market through advertising.
50:13.35
Shannon Kearns
And then if you don't have time to talk to customers. Like. get some kind of customer support person in there who can figure out tickets, who can give feedback to product and who can talk to customers.
50:25.32
Shannon Kearns
Maybe that's a product role. So I think B2C. Very easy to scale with a very small team.
50:32.93
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
50:34.45
Shannon Kearns
on the meat is on the b2b side I do think it's important to have. You've got to have, well, of course you have your head of product there, but I think it's very important to have someone who can help you understand the different buying roles and the different buying committees.
50:54.31
Shannon Kearns
and speak to those buying committees. and push the sales cycle forward within the buying committees. So I actually do believe assuming you've got a good go to market strategy and you're working on validating that.
51:07.87
Shannon Kearns
I do believe in bringing in some sort of founding sales person. to help. with all of that because it's a heavy lift for founders and founders need to be building in the community. They need to be at trade shows and so forth.
51:21.82
Shannon Kearns
I don't think it's any replacement for a founder being involved in the sales. I think the founder needs to be involved in the sales and b2b Like... for like the first two years.
51:33.14
Robert Karel
Mm hmm.
51:33.16
Shannon Kearns
But this founding sales person can help understand the different blockers that are coming up among the buyer buying committee. they can push the cycles forward. they can start thinking about building out operationally. a CRM and so forth.
51:48.83
Shannon Kearns
that is becomes really important when you're actually so selling into big enterprise. teens. And of course, that's making the assumption that you've just got to a great product person in there.
52:03.08
Shannon Kearns
who's able to take customer feedback and prioritize it with your go-to-market strategist and then also who is building out whatever.
52:15.03
Shannon Kearns
Whatever analytics, but it's a little bit less important to have the data for. B2B.
52:21.93
Robert Karel
Thank you.
52:21.75
Shannon Kearns
That's just my POV. Would you agree with that? or work.
52:26.01
Robert Karel
Yeah, and I love the idea of having, you need someone to lead sales to manage the end to end sales cycle, whereas the founder is kind of. tactic strategically kind of going in and out.
52:39.25
Shannon Kearns
yes
52:39.60
Robert Karel
When they're needed to move it along but not having to handhold every stage of the process, every procurement conversation, that shouldn't be the founder's time.
52:45.29
Shannon Kearns
Yes. Yeah.
52:48.97
Robert Karel
And then... The other piece is just on the go-to-market strategy side. The strategist so kind of also comes down to the foundational positioning. So I think. a product marketer.
53:00.13
Shannon Kearns
yes
53:00.51
Robert Karel
having that because a big part of product go-to-market strategy is the work that product marketing does and done identifying the icp and the personas and the use cases and the competitive market et etc so having that foundational insight to feed the strategy,
53:20.52
Shannon Kearns
yeah
53:21.28
Robert Karel
So to me, those are kind of those MVP roles. and then Anything you can do above and beyond that, very often you can leverage agencies and consultants for the first year or so as you're just getting more customers.
53:24.46
Shannon Kearns
Yeah.
53:32.91
Robert Karel
and then you don't need demand gen until you have targets that require a flywheel, right?
53:40.43
Shannon Kearns
Yeah. And I love that you called out a product marketer. I think to me like a seasoned product marketer is a go to market strategist, but
53:48.35
Robert Karel
Yeah.
53:48.84
Shannon Kearns
Probably. So, I think it's a great move. for a founder. to very very early on hire a founding pmm because they're getting someone who can do everything that you said that and they can do the strategy. And they can also do like some execution work. So like founding PMM.
54:07.85
Shannon Kearns
is across the board i think just an exceptional early hire to consider
54:14.41
Robert Karel
Perfect. Well, Shannon, this was a lot of fun. This went very quickly, but it was really I loved going deep into zero to one launches.
54:18.16
Shannon Kearns
yeah i was so great
54:22.62
Robert Karel
Thanks so much for taking the time today.
54:24.93
Shannon Kearns
yeah Thank you, Rob. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
