00:01.78
Robert Karel
Every growing B2B company will eventually reach a stage where they have to consider international expansion. It could be a US-born startup eyeing other countries, or a non-US tech company trying to crack the American market.
00:14.10
Robert Karel
And spoiler alert, translating your website and hosting a few local events is not a go-to-market strategy. My guest today is Angela Troccoli, head of marketing at Revecore, and soon to be published author of a book that aims to help marketers navigate some of the most common traps they tend to fall into.
00:31.17
Robert Karel
Angela has spent years as an American marketing leader working for companies headquartered outside the US and has helped organizations navigate expansion across borders in both directions. Angela, welcome to the show.
00:42.59
Angela Troccoli
Thanks. Great to be here.
00:44.89
Robert Karel
So why don't we um get started by just providing a little bit of background and you know share some of that international experience that you've had.
00:54.28
Angela Troccoli
Yeah, you know, I'll be honest, it's something that i kind of fell into. um i to provide some some context, I'm a bit of a Francophile.
01:06.87
Angela Troccoli
And had a CMO that I'd worked with previously who knew this about me. And so he called me, want to say it was in the middle of the pandemic. And he said, do you want to work for a company based of Paris?
01:20.79
Angela Troccoli
And I think I said to him, say less. I did not overthink it. I was so excited. There was something very glamorous. um At least it felt to me at the time about working for a company based abroad.
01:37.02
Angela Troccoli
What I ultimately found though, um is that marketing for an organization not based where you live is is very different. um and And it really opened my eyes to how how global marketing is is truly just so different from marketing in your your you know your home country, your home area.
02:01.43
Angela Troccoli
how teams operate, how decisions get made, how markets behave. and And frankly, later when I had the opportunity to join a Berlin-based company, what drew me back this time was not the prospect of, again, traveling overseas to Europe, but rather helping to manage this complexity of international expansion and international go-to-market.
02:23.83
Angela Troccoli
And that that challenge is what really got me excited and what brought me back to it.
02:29.18
Robert Karel
So um is the German based company where you're based in the US and they're in Germany now? Right.
02:35.74
Angela Troccoli
Yes. and And it's actually the company that I was with previously. So I'm now, again, working for a U.S.-based company.
02:39.04
Robert Karel
Yep.
02:41.98
Angela Troccoli
I think for me, especially with a young one at home, I kind of have to take turns, right? So every other company is going to be maybe based not in the United States because it's ah it's a lot.
02:52.50
Angela Troccoli
It's more than you might expect in terms of just travel, the cultural shift, and the hours that you have to keep. it is It's not as glamorous as I expected it would be.
03:03.35
Robert Karel
well Nothing ever is, I imagine. But so you've had both perspectives. So how do you um describe the difference between being a U.S.-based marketer working for a non-U.S. headquartered company versus being marketer?
03:21.24
Robert Karel
you know, non-US based marketer working for a US based company? have you Have you sensed a difference in just the overall cultures or operating models for those different types of scenarios?
03:34.74
Angela Troccoli
Yeah, you know, I think that um the, at least from my own experience, the likelihood of being US-based marketer working for an internationally based company is is maybe more common.
03:49.34
Angela Troccoli
um But the what I will say is that, at least including my peers, what I found is there's this common expectation that you somehow represent your market, especially if you are the marketer that's based in that other country.
04:04.76
Angela Troccoli
Right. um Which I think we can agree is kind of ridiculous, especially when you're marketing to maybe a target market that is not who you are as an individual.
04:08.89
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
04:15.38
Angela Troccoli
um You know, I've certainly fallen into that um that box of where I had to somehow know what the U.S. market um represented holistically and no single person can really do that. So, um you know, that, that is one of those expectations that you kind of have to either be really upfront about or just expect on your side and and be open to that type of dynamic.
04:43.89
Angela Troccoli
um I think what's also very challenging is you have to be the voice of that region in leadership conversations, right? So you're not only, let's say as a product marketer or as a digital marketer, having to be the voice for your decisions and your strategy, but you're also having to make the case for why in that region, that strategy makes sense.
05:06.68
Angela Troccoli
Um, and it's, it's hard, especially when you're not based in or very near the home office, right? Because you, you don't have that proximity to leadership or to decision-making.
05:17.75
Angela Troccoli
I definitely felt that struggle, right? Where you're missing the hallway conversations, you're missing being in the room where it happens, right? And I would say there was a little bit of a positive shift during COVID, ironically, because everyone was not in the office.
05:26.40
Robert Karel
Right.
05:35.98
Angela Troccoli
um
05:36.18
Robert Karel
right
05:37.40
Angela Troccoli
And the openness of having somebody work from another country has stuck around because people have recognized, oh there's great talent everywhere. Let's tap into that. But if you're not a short flight even or a short drive away, that lack of proximity to the leadership team can can slow things down for you. And it makes it difficult for you to advocate for what you're you're doing Um, so I would say, you know, be, be ready for that, right?
06:03.79
Angela Troccoli
Know that you're going to be expected to advocate and you'll probably have to, not literally, but figuratively shout a little louder that they can hear you over there.
06:11.99
Robert Karel
Yeah.
06:13.88
Angela Troccoli
Right. And you'll have to come with more evidence because they expect you to, right.
06:17.87
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
06:20.53
Angela Troccoli
They're not just going to take it for granted. They're to expect you know the market, but they're going to expect you to prove it anyways. Um, so that's weird right.
06:26.12
Robert Karel
Right. Because you you're not just a marketer, you're also someone who's on the hook to educate the rest of the organization on that market, which is makes it a very interesting role, but also that much more challenging, I'm sure.
06:27.47
Angela Troccoli
Right.
06:35.97
Angela Troccoli
Right. Yeah.
06:42.35
Angela Troccoli
Exactly. Yeah.
06:43.80
Robert Karel
and going And going back to... um the challenge of you know the remoteness of it. it's It's one thing even during the pandemic where, okay, everyone's remote, but a time zone challenge.
06:55.11
Angela Troccoli
Oof.
06:57.02
Robert Karel
Have you kind of sensed that you know wherever the leadership team is, is the time zone that matters and everyone else adjusts?
06:57.45
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
07:04.76
Angela Troccoli
that that is fair i would say um you know i've been lucky to work for companies that don't expect me to work at 3 a.m but they're definitely expecting me to be presenting to the board at six and so um and if you're not ready for that then you're not going to be able to influence the decisions i think that's really where the trade-off happens right um and you have to make that choice that's your boundary that you have to set are you willing to join the meeting at 6 a.m
07:13.60
Robert Karel
Magnus.
07:17.69
Robert Karel
Right. Yeah.
07:34.65
Angela Troccoli
so that you can advocate for your strategic choices and move something forward for you. um Really, you know, do you have the conviction to to do that? Is it worth it or is it not? I mean, I would never advise someone upend their entire lifestyle, but you have to understand that if you make the choice not to, there's probably going to be implications in terms of career growth if you choose to work for a company that is based somewhere else.
08:04.22
Robert Karel
Right, which makes all the sense in the world. And its it is a trade-off, but it's an investment also in career growth.
08:10.55
Angela Troccoli
It is, yes, 100%. Yeah.
08:13.11
Robert Karel
um So, you know, you've you're mentioning that, you know, there's some organization you work for where you'd be the sole marketer in in the local region. And obviously a larger scale company may have teams or even offices in these other regions. um What are some of the cultural misunderstandings that often show up, especially, you know, obviously you if you're an American in Paris, we'll call out to George Gershwin, but if you're, um you know, you're,
08:42.23
Robert Karel
Of the nationality of the headquarter company who just happened to be in region, it's different than if you are um a local national for an office or a region and you're dealing with a different culture, home office.
08:51.19
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
08:54.11
Robert Karel
What are some of those challenges that you've either witnessed or that you're just familiar with?
08:54.67
Angela Troccoli
I
09:00.56
Angela Troccoli
think the most common challenge is assuming that markets are more similar than they really are. Right. And I would say this probably spans B2C and B2B.
09:14.49
Angela Troccoli
But with our economy today, as our B2C economy today being so heavily influenced by social media, I would argue it's harder in B2B.
09:25.37
Angela Troccoli
The market dynamics are so different.
09:25.70
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
09:28.60
Angela Troccoli
um and it And it comes across through everything from political orientation to different tariff strategies that those nations might have to, you know, the makeup of of economic brackets. I mean, they're even comparing France to Spain, to Italy, to Greece, they are night and day culturally.
09:52.31
Angela Troccoli
And so if your messaging feels really generic and doesn't reflect local business priorities, that's gonna be really difficult for you. and If you're over estimating your brand awareness or credibility, if you're expecting that that will transfer, that that's going to hurt you.
10:12.47
Robert Karel
right.
10:14.36
Angela Troccoli
Right. Um, there are maybe analogies of like, oh, we're the X, uh, we're the, we're the BMW of this industry. Well, maybe not, maybe that works for you in Germany, but it doesn't work for you in, uh, the middle East, right. Or an APAC.
10:32.82
Angela Troccoli
So you really have to make sure that you are tapping in to the cultural identity of that specific region, that specific country. Um, and you also have to tap into the sales motions.
10:44.38
Angela Troccoli
of those countries, you know, it's it's truly down to like, how do they purchase? What is the expectation? How do you build relationships? And then working that back to how you market to them.
10:55.96
Angela Troccoli
and And I think a lot of companies who maybe haven't experienced it or haven't gotten that guidance, they, they try to go in to the us for example actually there's in in my book there's an example of a dutch company very well respected uh trying to get into the u.s market they're like we're ready um and they essentially just you know carbon copied their model that had worked so well for them in europe um and tried to deploy it in the united states messaging relationships expectations of how the pipeline would would grow and it failed because they
11:35.35
Angela Troccoli
They didn't have the network. They didn't have the customer proof points already locked in. They, you know, had assumed that the U S would be the same. And, you know, um I'm telling you now it's just not so.
11:47.83
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
11:47.90
Robert Karel
ah Spoiler alert.
11:50.67
Angela Troccoli
It's different. Um, and so I think that's where, you know, there's, there's cultural misunderstandings that man, they cross every level of ah of an organization, but you feel it in the marketing the most.
12:04.41
Robert Karel
So we had a little fun with the title of the episode, starting with beyond translation, kind of implying that there are leaders out there that actually think if they simply translate their website into local language and their content, bam, suddenly they're going to be very relevant in a new market, kind of similar to your Dutch example of copy paste and why isn't working.
12:24.75
Robert Karel
So what other experiences do you have with that oversimplification? do you Do you feel that's an exception or a rule in terms of leadership expectations?
12:35.75
Angela Troccoli
I would say so far it's it's been a rule. um I wish it wasn't. I, I, frankly, I wish it was that easy that you could just translate it and you were like, I'm done. it would, it would make everyone's lives a lot easier. Um, even if it was something, oh I'll translate the website and then also swap in a few local cultural references and, and suddenly we will be relevant.
12:59.29
Angela Troccoli
Even that is just, it's not how it works. Um, you know, and I'll
13:03.72
Robert Karel
That's a stupid and a pig comparison, right? it
13:07.58
Angela Troccoli
And I'll give an example. um And this is one that I'm sure maybe, I mean, I hear about it a lot in the marketing space. Maybe not everyone's heard um the Chevy Nova case, right?
13:18.06
Robert Karel
Mm.
13:18.97
Angela Troccoli
So Chevy had made a car called the Chevy Nova that had really been successful in the United States. And they're like, let's take it to LATAM. And it was a complete failure.
13:30.17
Angela Troccoli
Um, Now, admittedly, one of the biggest reasons it's called a failure and why we reference it in marketing is because Nova in Spanish literally translates to doesn't go, which is, as you might imagine, not ideal for a car.
13:44.39
Angela Troccoli
And so it was ah it was a bit of a mistake on many levels, but they just assumed that it's successful here.
13:48.39
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
13:50.87
Angela Troccoli
Let's just, you know, land and expand. And it it really doesn't work that way. Even literal translation is is not going to work for you. Even if everything else was the same in that market, the translation itself has to be contextualized.
14:07.77
Angela Troccoli
um And so I think it's it's funny because we assume that that language change even in and of itself could be enough, but even that is not enough.
14:18.44
Angela Troccoli
um If everything else is there, you still have to make sure that you're you're contextualizing that. It's hard.
14:23.29
Robert Karel
Your brand identity may need to evolve to be a global identity as opposed to regional identity, right?
14:29.14
Angela Troccoli
Exactly, exactly.
14:31.58
Robert Karel
So um let's flip it on the other side. And what are some examples of international expansion that's actually worked well? You know, what's an example of someone that just did it right?
14:42.31
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. So I worked for an organization that I actually think did a fantastic job. and And the results, I would say, you know, proved that point. They didn't start with a big launch.
14:56.18
Angela Troccoli
They didn't show up in the U.S. and and say, we're here. You're welcome. They actually, um they started by sending just a few folks to trade shows. to scope out the competition, learn a little bit more about the the US. So this is a company that was based in Europe trying to come to the US.
15:13.85
Angela Troccoli
um And they did that for about a year, really just like, you know, boots on the ground. let's Let's tease this out. Let's see how other competitors are operating here and how clients talk to us and let's see what works. They tested messaging um in real conversations. So before going digital in the US, they they had these one-to-ones to really test out their messaging.
15:33.75
Angela Troccoli
And They were able to grow a small but notable client base in the United States that were kind of willing to take a risk on a company that didn't have the infrastructure here yet, but had a great product and they liked the story. And so they built those relationships and they were really intentional um about doing that. And then they also thought about what city are we going to set up shop in?
15:59.19
Angela Troccoli
They really got down to that level of of specificity.
15:59.60
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
16:02.79
Angela Troccoli
And they started with a small space. They started with this like little garage that maybe, you know, a couple of leaders were working out of before growing and growing and growing into a large office space.
16:13.79
Angela Troccoli
So they gave themselves the the time and the the physical and emotional space to kind of get things right and get things wrong.
16:24.06
Angela Troccoli
And the reason that I think that this was so critical is because they were able to do it without this massive cash outflow. So they were able to kind of make the mistakes before it was really expensive and before it would cost them brand equity too, right?
16:35.76
Robert Karel
Correct?
16:39.62
Angela Troccoli
If you just make a big splash and you fail, people remember. And so I think it was, it was so critical And they have steadily grown. I'm actually, you know, I don't work there anymore, but I'm i'm still impressed by how well they've really maintained that momentum because they, you know, they took that crawl, walk, run approach and it it served them very well.
17:02.65
Robert Karel
No, that's great. And I love the time aspect. And that's kind of like going to my next question. And so where when companies, let's say, in the U.S. are expanding beyond, where do they most often under-invest? So is it is it people, is it presence, or is it patience?
17:23.42
Robert Karel
Yeah.
17:24.89
Angela Troccoli
All of the above. um But I would say one thing that you you didn't mention and that it's the first thing is information. Market research, which arguably you could say is maybe patience, patience to collect that, that the information, the insights, you know, every single trip you take without having boots, like, you know, whole office in that country,
17:39.30
Robert Karel
Yeah.
17:51.16
Angela Troccoli
That's a data point. Every pitch you give is a data point. Every conversation you have is a data point. It's worth taking the time to collect that information, those insights, how it affects your organization, how you might then make decisions down the line before you then invest in the people and in the presence. um I would say the other underinvestment is definitely the people and marketing in particular.
18:14.81
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
18:16.84
Angela Troccoli
There's, I think this expectation that you only need sales to be local, but that could not be farther from the truth, or you need one marketer and they can handle it.
18:27.10
Angela Troccoli
Again, could not be farther from the truth. If you are going to stand up a presence in a country, you really have to look at it like you are launching another company in that country.
18:39.06
Angela Troccoli
And what does it take to launch that company? It takes HR, it takes marketing, it takes IT, it takes operations, it takes sales, it takes finance. that are dedicated to serving that region and doing it really, really well.
18:52.35
Angela Troccoli
When you shortchange that and you assume that you can, you know, bootstrap it a little bit, it generally does not work out.
18:58.89
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
19:02.28
Angela Troccoli
And you're not able to really attract top talent or top clients. They expect that type of presence as well. So I would say number one, information.
19:12.33
Angela Troccoli
Number two, the people.
19:15.00
Robert Karel
Yeah. And like, so going back to the information. So the other side of that coin is obviously I couldn't agree more that you better have done your research and understand your market, you know, and crawl, walk, run is always a good way to, you know, test the water, see what's working, reinvest, grow.
19:31.73
Angela Troccoli
Yep. Mm-hmm.
19:31.99
Robert Karel
But where do you hit that stage of analysis paralysis where now you have to, at some point you have to jump in. And so what's, what's the turning point between,
19:44.92
Robert Karel
you've learned as much as you can learn, but just like anything else, sometimes you have to try to learn some more. So when do you actually start seeing that real commitment, like hiring those local teams or opening an office or whatnot? like what What is that evolution from, i have insight, but now i have the only way I'm going actually know is to do?
20:04.63
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. Now I have to scale it. Now I have to commit. Um, I would say when the small scale activity starts to generate a pattern of outcomes.
20:19.80
Angela Troccoli
So when it comes, when it starts to become a little bit more predictable, you've got not one or two wins. You maybe have six customers who've signed up with you. The messaging is resonating.
20:31.19
Angela Troccoli
um you feel like you're ah you're about to hit that stride and you're seeing again, pattern of predictability invest that maybe don't, you know, rent out a whole skyscraper, but start to hire locally, build those programs out, start putting the infrastructure in place. And and this is where, um, I would kind of,
20:53.24
Angela Troccoli
reflect on um the crossing the chasm concept where it's like you've already you've you've got those early adopters you're starting to progress you want to really grow and scale your business there and you've you've seen the patterns do it right because those those you know the next group the next cohort of customers that you want to court um they will expect the infrastructure right you've tapped the ones that are willing to take the risk
21:17.59
Robert Karel
Yeah.
21:20.22
Angela Troccoli
Now you need to prove that you've got the support that the tech, the operations to really, you know, be their partner. um And so that's when you invest.
21:30.36
Robert Karel
That makes perfect sense. um So in your book, you discuss what a leadership team's checklist should include before they decide they're ready to expand internationally. So what are some of those key steps or checkboxes that CEOs, executive teams, boards should be taking that are maybe not happening enough out there?
21:51.03
Angela Troccoli
Yeah, I will admit this list is not exhaustive.
21:55.68
Robert Karel
Yeah.
21:55.83
Angela Troccoli
um But at a high level, and this is going to sound like, okay, Angela, i hear what you're saying because you've said it three times now, but validate the demand. Make sure you have a clear use case for that market.
22:10.41
Angela Troccoli
Do not treat international expansion like a shiny object, right?
22:10.82
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
22:15.51
Angela Troccoli
Everyone else is expanding. I must do that as well. If there's not a clear use case for your product in that market, pause. um Make sure that you have localized messaging, which means not just translation, but contextualized for that market and proof points. You've already locked in a few customers that are willing to vouch for you.
22:37.21
Angela Troccoli
um Then set realistic timelines and expectations. Realistic.
22:42.86
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
22:43.71
Angela Troccoli
Don't expect that in three to six months, you know, you're going to get featured ah in you know, at some trade show on the keynote stage. No one knows who you are. So chill out. um And then make sure that you have operational readiness to support that market. So that's where that last thing is like, you've, you've got the predictability. Now we're going to really prove that we can operate here.
23:07.22
Angela Troccoli
Customers are going to expect that. And so having that kind of plan in mind of how you're gonna support them from a customer support perspective and an IT perspective, it's important. Like you don't have to have it done, but at least have the plan.
23:22.42
Angela Troccoli
And then I would say once you've kind of put those five steps together, it's just five, five things, right? It's not huge, but at least do that. And then, say, okay, we're ready to expand internationally. But if you can't figure, if you can't answer those five questions, you are getting ahead of yourself and you need to take a beat and really think long and hard about whether you want to spend the money. Because in the end, you can spend a lot of money expanding internationally and get nothing for it.
23:51.31
Robert Karel
Right. And I'd love to ask um kind of an interesting question regarding strategy. When maybe it doesn't make sense to go expand into this market directly, there's the other option of going through channels.
24:10.57
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
24:11.19
Robert Karel
So I'd love to get, gooda and i've I've worked for some companies that that was their entry point was through partners, whether it's, you know, system integrators or VARs or, you know, just technical partnerships with local. but So what what what what are your what's your advice there when, and you might do both. So I'd love to like, what are what are some of those um litmus test questions that you should ask of whether you should go via partnerships, direct or both?
24:38.10
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. Both is always great. Don't do both at once.
24:42.38
Robert Karel
We need
24:42.74
Angela Troccoli
um I think it depends on what global relationships you already have, right? If you have global relationships with partners and maybe you only have a contract with them in say Portugal, but they have offices in Canada, ask for the connection and look for opportunities to land and expand within those channel partnerships, right? Establish the reseller agreement in Canada, use them as a mechanism to build credibility, get those market insights before you invest. So I would say if you're in a position where those channel partnerships are already pretty strong for you, they're not hyper regionalized, they're actually quite expansive.
25:27.90
Angela Troccoli
definitely tap into that first. It is the cheapest, fastest way to build credibility in those regions before you make the big investment. Now, I would argue not everyone has those great channel partnerships. So if you don't, then you probably need to start with your own boots on the ground at the trade shows in order to get their attention, right?
25:51.51
Angela Troccoli
um They may not actually talk to you until you've established a U.S. presence. Because they expect that. They need that, right? um So I would say the answer is it depends.
26:03.82
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
26:03.93
Angela Troccoli
But that's the depends is an easy one. Do you already have them in your region and you can actually tap into their global network? Or do you need to prove yourself a little bit first?
26:14.90
Angela Troccoli
And then you can kind of go from there.
26:16.66
Robert Karel
and And then it goes back to from a leadership standpoint of you know doing your research and understanding how these markets work and how people buy. Your marketing investment could be product marketing and sales partnership investments versus field marketing and demand gen and brand investments.
26:32.89
Robert Karel
So it's it's a real interesting thing. And it goes back to your very oft reiterated point. Do your research. Understand the which is I think it could not be repeated enough.
26:40.73
Angela Troccoli
use
26:46.99
Robert Karel
Right.
26:47.37
Angela Troccoli
It would shock you how much you have to remind folks, especially when they see this idea of international expansion as this gold cup, right?
26:58.26
Angela Troccoli
We did it. We expanded internationally and it feels validating for you as a brand, but don't let the shininess disguise the fact that it's expensive and can cost your brand.
27:11.41
Robert Karel
Right. It's like you're you're a 10 million ARR company and you've expanded to Europe, it can 20 million in a year. It's like, well, forget about how much you're investing in there.
27:18.05
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
27:20.18
Robert Karel
And to your earlier point, they don't know who you are They don't care who you are Make them care.
27:22.07
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. Yeah.
27:25.22
Robert Karel
that takes time and money.
27:25.89
Angela Troccoli
Exactly.
27:27.86
Robert Karel
um So, okay, let's say we have leadership on board, um the board of directors, um the leadership team saying this X market is, we've done our research, we feel it's time to expand.
27:40.62
Robert Karel
It's go time. Now it's execution. And so when we talk about execution and go to market strategy, you're talking about sales and marketing alignment.
27:50.42
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
27:51.13
Robert Karel
So what are some of those foundational prerequisites that the CMO and CRO, for example, need to agree upon to actually say we're ready to go?
28:04.85
Robert Karel
what are What's some of the upfront work from an execution standpoint that these functional leaders now need to agree on to make sure this is all working? and And I should throw in product leadership too, because there's going to be some level of product readiness, depending on what you're selling, that may need to be happened to, whether it's translating into a local language or it's just...
28:20.12
Angela Troccoli
that.
28:25.22
Robert Karel
metric system. There's like a hundred things that could go wrong with the wrong product.
28:28.71
Angela Troccoli
No, exactly. Or even ah the, um I would say the technology partner ecosystem in those regions might be different depending on the the industry that you're in or the type of product that you deliver.
28:41.28
Angela Troccoli
And so all that
28:41.75
Robert Karel
And certainly privacy laws and other things that you have to account for.
28:45.10
Angela Troccoli
Huge implications. Huge implications. And that comes back to like understand the market you're going into, not just, you know, at a very surface level, but what is the regulatory environment? What is the political environment? What is the buying environment?
28:57.69
Angela Troccoli
um So to answer the question, i would say, especially when talking to the CFO, be really clear about the investment.
29:07.15
Robert Karel
Okay.
29:14.71
Angela Troccoli
Um, and, and don't shortchange it. I know I've said that already, but it's, you can pour, going to make up a number, $7 million dollars into something, or let's make it even less scary, $70,000 into something and get nothing.
29:31.58
Angela Troccoli
Or you can pour a hundred thousand and it unlocks. So be really, really clear what that unlock minimum threshold is to be successful.
29:42.46
Angela Troccoli
Um, and make sure that you are really all in because if you don't have that very clear alignment with your leadership from the onset and the commitment, the risk you run is you and your mind know exactly who you have to hire, where they have to be located, how long it's going to take.
30:05.72
Angela Troccoli
Um, if they pull the plug on your budget and you're halfway done, because you didn't align with them and they're getting a little bit scared about the cash outflow, um then it was all for nothing, right?
30:14.76
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
30:19.72
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
30:20.73
Angela Troccoli
So it sometimes feels, again, exciting. I got the green light. Let's just do this thing. Take a beat. Are we all on the same page of how much we're going to have to invest and how long it's gonna take to be successful? And sometimes that conversation is,
30:40.55
Angela Troccoli
CMO, because the the leadership expects this is going to be a marketing-led thing, right?
30:41.85
Robert Karel
had
30:47.78
Angela Troccoli
they They might still not understand how operationally challenging this is. So you as a CMO need to be asking exactly those questions that you asked, right? Like, how is this changing the product?
30:59.58
Angela Troccoli
How is this changing our security, you know, SLAs? How is this changing our data protection and our our data storage? There's so many things. You as a marketer are going to have to ask that.
31:12.70
Angela Troccoli
Not because you own it, but because if you don't ask it, you will be the one left holding the bag.
31:19.08
Robert Karel
Right. And I think going back to expectation setting and you know time to ah ROI and break even, um what in your experience as you've expanded out,
31:35.22
Robert Karel
what How do you set expectations at the leadership and board level? like What is the investment to payback timing that, you know and again, this is a very tough question because every business is going to be very different, but it's less so what are the actual numbers, more so what's the process to getting them there is is really the question.
31:49.26
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
31:55.66
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
31:56.45
Robert Karel
how do you How do you advise marketing leaders to set those expectations with the board so you don't get your funding pulled halfway through because they thought it would be quicker, right?
32:07.71
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. So similar to how I mentioned earlier that when you are expanding internationally, it's not just like I'm spinning up a satellite office.
32:20.85
Angela Troccoli
It's like I'm launching another business in that country. Look at your marketing the same way, right? So if you would build a ah marketing strategy with events, partnerships, you've got revenue marketing, you've got analyst relations, you've got product marketing, everything.
32:39.54
Angela Troccoli
You've got a team that supports that, a budget that supports that, and a timeline for what it's gonna take to execute and deliver specific outcomes. do the same thing for that market as if you are launching a new marketing department in that market.
32:55.16
Angela Troccoli
So start there, overlay it with your existing strategy and say, okay, i don't want to be greedy.
32:55.97
Robert Karel
Yes.
33:03.10
Angela Troccoli
what are the things that might cross over? Arguably, you could say maybe analyst relations because our top analysts are global. The relationships are going to be the same. The reports are global. Okay. That's what I could check. I don't need another one of those.
33:17.11
Angela Troccoli
Um, I might only need 50% more partner marketing because some of these relationships are going to be at a global SI level. Some of them are regional. Okay. So you can start walking it back, but start with,
33:31.13
Angela Troccoli
as if it's you don't have a team. You are starting something new, then tighten it. And I would say if you go from that direction, you are going to be able to set a much more comfortable and realistic budget, team, strategic plan, and timeline for yourself than if you try to take your existing and figure out what of these can I expand into another market.
33:56.92
Angela Troccoli
I know that sounds like, isn't it just six in one, half a dozen in the other? It's not. You will miss things.
34:01.84
Robert Karel
Yep.
34:02.58
Angela Troccoli
And so I would recommend starting big and and paring it down um and remind them that this is not just about running a few events locally, supporting sales on pitch decks or translating content.
34:17.98
Angela Troccoli
It is about having a marketing engine that is fueling revenue growth for the company in that region. and entire outcomes to that too. We are driving revenue growth for this region. That is the purpose of this team, this function.
34:34.62
Robert Karel
I think that's terrific advice just in terms of just modeling, saying let's pretend this expanded region we're trying to get into is is a new market, it's a new company.
34:47.90
Angela Troccoli
Yes.
34:48.60
Robert Karel
And what would it take to actually launch a company to sell our product in this market?
34:53.40
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
34:56.15
Robert Karel
And then, oh, but it's not a new company. there's some There's some shared resources that would work. And actually walking through with leadership saying, this is where it logically can apply versus to not have a product marketer or a comms person that has a regional experience
35:01.85
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. Yeah.
35:16.18
Robert Karel
is a risk so that we might want to invest X 0.5 headcount or one headcount for this type of thing. And maybe it's through agencies or maybe it's through, that's the how can you figure it out, but you're actually showing the gaps you have in skills.
35:32.60
Robert Karel
And then also bandwidth, like being a product marketing leader for the last many years, there's always more work than there is bandwidth.
35:32.99
Angela Troccoli
Exactly.
35:42.68
Robert Karel
So you're now expanding and expecting, let's say, your product marketers or your field marketers or whatever to just add this to their plate when they're already having to remove things from their plate.
35:53.94
Robert Karel
So just being literally really honest of if we take maybe these existing resources can skill-wise, aptitude-wise help, but something else will have to be deprioritized and have that level of conversation too.
36:08.26
Robert Karel
Thank you.
36:08.81
Angela Troccoli
Exactly. No, you exactly right. um And it takes a little bit more time. But in the end, it's worth it to make sure that you're not selling yourself short or putting your team on a fast path to burnout.
36:25.17
Angela Troccoli
Right? No one wants that that.
36:25.80
Robert Karel
Right.
36:27.09
Angela Troccoli
That's the one common thread across all these regions. No one wants their team to be unhappy. So as a leader, no matter where you're based, If you think you're going to do a lot more with the same team, be prepared to lose some people on that team.
36:44.38
Angela Troccoli
And that's why I think this is a great way to protect talent and protect the companies that trust.
36:50.04
Robert Karel
So now I'm going to put on my investor hat and i'll and I'm going to refute everything you just said by saying, well, we have AI now.
36:58.19
Angela Troccoli
Oh, sorry.
36:58.87
Robert Karel
You don't have to worry about any of this because you can do three times as much work with no extra resources because we have AI. So um i'm being i'm being goof I'm being goofy, but the reality is there is an expectation
37:09.06
Angela Troccoli
I know. It hurts. Yeah.
37:15.61
Robert Karel
for everyone. It's not it's not a company by company thing. There's not a company out there that's not feeling legitimate pressure. And I call it legitimate because there are efficiencies that can be gained with AI. There are risks that can be introduced by relying too heavily on AI. So let's talk about where AI as it sits today in early 2026
37:40.69
Robert Karel
Where can AI help with international expansion? Where are some innovations that make sense for it to help? But I've not really heard much about that use case, quite honestly. You hear about content, you hear ah um you about you know process optimization. i don't hear about international globalization.
38:02.47
Robert Karel
What are you seeing or hearing?
38:05.27
Angela Troccoli
So I'm right there with you. um And I'm sure you can you can guess my answer based on how I've already been talking about what it takes to be successful when expanding internationally, relationships, listening, boots on the ground.
38:22.01
Angela Troccoli
Those are things that by definition, AI is not replicating and would would struggle to do, right?
38:28.99
Robert Karel
Awesome.
38:29.18
Angela Troccoli
um It certainly can help on on the edge cases like content, maybe synthesizing that research and helping you to uncover, um you know, trends in one direction or another that might steer your decision making.
38:45.73
Angela Troccoli
So it's it's very good at kind of analyzing that input. but it it can't go collect it for you. Right. It doesn't, it's not going to go do that. Not yet.
38:57.37
Angela Troccoli
Um, you know, I think that, um, once you've done the hard part, once you've understood the market, you've built the relationships, you're getting the positioning, right. And you ideally have messaging guides that will be more regionally contextualized region specific.
39:16.47
Angela Troccoli
then it can probably scale some of that. You might not need as many copywriters. You might need one that's kind of overseeing it. um
39:23.80
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
39:25.08
Angela Troccoli
You might be able to tap different members of the team just to sanity check. Like, does this joke hit in Spain like it hits in Canada, right? The answer might be yes. The answer might be no. um I think you know, that's where you you could probably use ai But look, I mean, from a personal side, um you know, I have family in Mexico, Venezuela, Spain.
39:52.12
Angela Troccoli
The language is different. And you're probably thinking it's Spanish. It is, but the language is different. And so, you know, having the the cultural understanding and and living it is still always going to be important in order to really meet your market where they are.
40:14.33
Angela Troccoli
um And AI does not do that well.
40:18.37
Robert Karel
AI hasn't yet.
40:18.45
Angela Troccoli
AI always get the joke. So I think it's important that you know we understand the limitations that it still has.
40:23.93
Robert Karel
Yeah. So AI hasn't necessarily figured out nuance yet.
40:27.16
Angela Troccoli
new it does not It does not understand nuance.
40:30.17
Robert Karel
But what I do expect, though, as we kind of come back to, I do expect it can play a pretty valuable role in accelerating that research and discovery phase.
40:39.01
Angela Troccoli
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and what i you know what I think is nice, and and this is a I think it's still maybe growing application of AI, but breaking down the language barrier internally.
40:51.50
Robert Karel
Okay.
40:52.66
Angela Troccoli
So maybe they're not using it to sell in or using it for finished um marketing materials because that needs to be more polished. But Let's say I'm in the U.S.
41:05.21
Angela Troccoli
and I've got to have a team with folks that are in Ireland, in Greece, and in Dubai, and in Mexico.
41:09.84
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
41:16.08
Angela Troccoli
Let's just say, which is not an uncommon situation. And not everyone is fluent in all of those languages. And some of them are like,
41:27.83
Angela Troccoli
English is a, you know, we're proficient, but maybe not professionally. and they don't have to be because they're focused on grace. Real-time voice translation really helps to accelerate those conversations. Um, and you know, I think that the more that folks can kind of use, whether it's with, uh, uh,
41:51.19
Angela Troccoli
Microsoft or other tools, and there's a lot of tools that that can do that now in meetings, that really helps break down those language barriers and helps to accelerate decision making because people understand what's happening. You can have faster feedback loops, you can maybe do a faster first draft of content because AI does translate things pretty well or it might clean up copy.
42:13.75
Angela Troccoli
Um, if it was written by someone who's not a native speaker to that language, AI can kind of find some of those like, Oh, that's not the right way you'd do that. You'd say that you'd spell it. Um, so that's nice, right? I think it can help bring confidence to those teams.
42:29.88
Angela Troccoli
Um, but I mean, those are again, pretty edge cases and it's more around how you engage with your colleagues and less about how you go to market.
42:40.12
Robert Karel
Yeah, and I think, you know, going back to k crawl, walk, run, I think, yes, I think there would be significant value in allowing the experts on the ground in region to be able to collaborate and communicate as confidently their, let's say, their English-speaking, native-speaking peers.
42:59.54
Angela Troccoli
Yes.
43:04.04
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
43:04.44
Robert Karel
So everyone's on the same page and their expertise can truly be heard through this Rosetta Stone translation can provide.
43:12.12
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
43:13.36
Robert Karel
I think it's a great example of how AI could really add value today. um what what would your dream be like? Because obviously AI is like every three months, there's a new massive innovation and transformation and how trustworthy and impactful it can be.
43:30.17
Robert Karel
What's your dream of like just through all your experiences of managing global go to market where would you like to see the ai improvements uh coming next
43:42.26
Angela Troccoli
For international expansion or just in general for international expansion?
43:45.53
Robert Karel
but specifically international but you know hey but feel feel free to throw in any of wish list
43:47.60
Angela Troccoli
Yeah.
43:51.20
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. You know, um I think it would be incredible to have a tool that asked you the right questions, right?
44:02.94
Angela Troccoli
And was able to synthesize those responses that maybe you even articulate, right? It's it's a large language model. You're talking to it.
44:11.94
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
44:12.47
Angela Troccoli
And it's able to quickly connect the dots or identify the gaps at a global level. Right. Um, and, and take the first pass of translating content that is on brand on narrative in seconds.
44:33.62
Angela Troccoli
So we know that, or at least I believe i should say that AI doesn't inherently understand nuance. But it would be incredible if you could train a model that could take your nuance, could ask you to help it, and then could translate that into something meaningful.
44:53.82
Angela Troccoli
So it's truly that human in the loop, the interaction where it's it's not creating the evidence or or collecting the insights, but it's synthesizing it so quickly and with such great context that is able to deliver output faster and better than a human brain could ever do.
45:14.39
Angela Troccoli
I think that would be amazing.
45:16.09
Robert Karel
Yeah.
45:16.22
Angela Troccoli
um
45:16.57
Robert Karel
Yeah.
45:17.00
Angela Troccoli
i'll draw Sales strategy, go to market, collateral, anything, because it's starting with the human. It's starting with our experiences.
45:25.11
Robert Karel
Yeah, and I think i think we're on we're on our way because, you know, you have a lot of digital twins and, you know, i got my own digital twin on my website trained on my content and my voice.
45:29.58
Angela Troccoli
Yeah, exactly.
45:32.71
Robert Karel
And like global is the more context and input you provide from experts and locals and persona research and voice of customer, the smarter and more nuanced it will become.
45:45.51
Robert Karel
So I think it's more of a the AI. It's probably more of a learning how to train it versus can the AI do it?
45:51.38
Angela Troccoli
Yes.
45:53.02
Robert Karel
So I think that's.
45:53.40
Angela Troccoli
Oh, I agree. I think it just hasn't been a prioritized use case, but we got to bottle it.
45:56.83
Robert Karel
Yeah.
45:57.16
Angela Troccoli
i think that's our next step.
45:58.81
Robert Karel
I think that sounds great. So as were as we're wrapping, what's some advice you would give to some marketers that are considering roles at, you know, and then let's go call it the non-HQ region, you know, at a at a regional office, whether it's um a U.S. company abroad or vice versa, what are some of the things that you consider, um you know, earlier stage or earlier career marketers when they're considering those types of roles?
46:28.82
Angela Troccoli
Yeah. um It's not c glamorous. So, you know, I would say be prepared for the early morning phone calls, the late night.
46:46.30
Angela Troccoli
I think on the on the bright side for me, i had already worked for a global team. I actually led global product launches at Hewlett Packard for, for some time. And so I had done the 9 PMs and the 3 AM m calls from Shanghai when something broke. So I kind of already, i already knew what it felt like.
47:04.25
Angela Troccoli
And I was at least walking in with eyes wide open from that perspective, but be prepared for that. Um, it is not a nine to five.
47:11.92
Robert Karel
Yeah.
47:12.14
Angela Troccoli
Be prepared for the travel. If you want to have influence, over those decisions that are going to drive go-to-market strategy. Be prepared for the culture shift.
47:25.11
Angela Troccoli
And um i was I was warned that there's a pretty significant culture difference between the U.S. and France, the U.S. and Germany, the U.S. and fill in the blank, right?
47:36.47
Robert Karel
yeah
47:37.44
Angela Troccoli
It's very true. And it's actually sometimes a little bit more jarring.
47:42.99
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
47:43.06
Angela Troccoli
then then you might realize, and you don't know how you as an American are going to be perceived. um So be prepared for that. And i I would say, give yourself grace, ask for grace. um Yeah, the advice would be less about the work, more about just knowing yourself and feeling that you're going to be ready to to jump into this. um Like I said, I take breaks, international, US, s international, US, because it's some it's a lot.
48:12.43
Robert Karel
that's great ah That's great advice. And I think it's giving giving yourself grace no matter what roles you're taking on or challenges is something we need to you know teach early so career folks to do because you don't learn if you don't make mistakes, but you still want to try.
48:29.44
Angela Troccoli
exactly.
48:30.49
Robert Karel
So I'd love to wrap up. I'd love to learn a little bit more about your upcoming book. ah When's it going to be available? What's it called? If you've got a name yet.
48:38.96
Angela Troccoli
Yes, yes. So um it is launching in early summer.
48:42.70
Robert Karel
Mm-hmm.
48:42.94
Angela Troccoli
And the book is called Signals, the Common Marketing Pitfalls and How to Avoid Them.
48:50.30
Robert Karel
a
48:50.42
Angela Troccoli
So the the book is really centered around, again, those those pitfalls. It's funny, when I first started writing it, um the subtitle was Marketing Mistakes. And I realized they're not mistakes. they They really are these traps that you don't always see coming because the environment can be so messy and fast and unclear.
49:11.93
Angela Troccoli
And it's hard when you're in it to really see the forest through the trees. And so the goal is to help expose and help marketing leaders really diagnose what's happening and and get out of that trap.
49:24.15
Angela Troccoli
I actually interviewed over two dozen CMOs, polled a bunch of real world examples from successful and unsuccessful businesses, even ones like Twitter, Google, like they don't always hit it out of the park.
49:37.48
Angela Troccoli
Um, but it's also shaped by what I've seen and I've experienced. So it's really been a labor of love and I'm hoping that it is helpful for up and coming marketing leaders, um, maybe cathartic for existing marketing leaders.
49:50.78
Angela Troccoli
i read it over a glass of wine and just laugh. It's, Oh man. Yeah. I've done that before.
49:54.90
Robert Karel
It's not just me. That's like, you know, they that that should be that should be the ah the tagline. it's so It's not just you.
49:59.82
Angela Troccoli
right? Yeah, it's not just you.
50:01.10
Robert Karel
Okay.
50:03.67
Angela Troccoli
um The interviews were were definitely, I think, therapy sessions just as much as they were interviews for these guys. So, yeah, I've loved it and and I'm excited to to get it into folks' hands.
50:14.26
Robert Karel
That's awesome. Well, I'm really excited to see it. And, you know, please ah follow Angela on LinkedIn so you can hear when it's when it's available. But Angela, this was a lot of fun, a great topic. I really appreciate you joining me today.
50:27.45
Angela Troccoli
Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time.
